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Thread: Am I the only one who didn't like Zoe?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    See, that's not what I "love" people for. I appreciate Zoe's efforts, but as a person, she irritates me. I once knew a story from a woman whose husband fought in war a decade or so ago, he was brave, he volunteered to go to defend his homeland, fought to the end, got his "awards" for bravery and came back. And he was an asshole, left all responsibilities to the family to his wife, didn't do anything, was bitching around if he heard complaints, took huge dept and when people with guns knocked on his door to take that dept back, he hid himself in a basement and left his wife to open the door for them and tell them he wasn't there.
    See, there are heroic deeds you bravely commit, and there are all the seemingly unimportant things you do in everyday life. For me, Zoe didn't lack bravery, but she lacked the guts to carry the burden she had taken, she lacked patience to achieve her goals when there were obstacles on her path, she lacked a realistic approach as in "nothing will be brought to you on a silver plate just because you want it", and she lacked the ability to restrain from talking about her deepest emotions whenever someone as much as hinted on her mental state.
    Did Zoe do brave things? - yes.
    Do I want to spend more than two days with someone like her? - No way in hell.
    But isn't that just anyone? Not one person on this earth plays only ONE role. That's why I hate when people say extremely stupid things like "two faced"- we are ALL multi-facated. It's just up to us to which aspects of ourselves we choose to nurture and care for, but sometimes life doesn't deal to us that hand where we can choose.

    No one starts off being the best that they can be- this is just part of her character development. I think part of the reason why there's this extreme dislike for her is because her character has not yet been fully fleshed out. I know of SO many characters in television, movies, books or games that I started off hating and now absolutely adore(for example, Sansa from GoT).

    She's just incomplete, as are a lot of us.. It is up to Ragnar, now, to redeem her character.. if he does it the right way. And I completely understand your position on her.
    At no point did I say 'EVERYONE SHOULD LOVE ZOE' I said everyone should be aware of the significance of a character like hers, and clearly you do. Even if you do see her as an annoying, mundane, trivial character, you are aware that she's in a lot of us. Including that Blowhard character, who's in severe denial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
    Yep, taking an argument to its logical extreme is a good way to expose the fallaciousness of it.
    Nah, I just see it as a horribly weak way to undermine what I have said with something really outrageous. You've yet to succeed, though.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Then I don't understand what you're arguing about here. Did anyone say Zoe as a character was no good? not developed, not realistic or anything? I don't remember anyone saying anything about her quality as a character, we were discussing her personality. All the appreciation in this case goes to Ragnar's ability to write a believable character, and all the "booooos" go to Zoe as a person. Like I said, even Voldemort had depth in his character. Umbridge was believable, but such a BITCH! Doesn't mean I don't appreciate Joan's ability to invent her, I just hate Umbridge for who she is. Should we have defined from the beginning whether we're talking about character's quality or personality quality?
    Who was arguing what? Was I defending her personality? Nope. If all we were talking about was her personality, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. Even though I know that wasn't the case at all.

    The very person who started this thread just basically stated he/she did not like a single thing about her, to the point where they can no longer support the sequel.. That seems more than just simply admonishing her for her personality. Don't be so obtuse, Quna, you're smarter than that. Besides, you act as though her character is a completely separate entity from her personality. That's absurd. They're both intermingled- for everyone. That's what makes an individual an individual... At this point it just seems like you're arguing semantics simply because you don't like her aesthetically, but it's cool, I don't need you to like her, nor anyone else. As I said, all you need is to acknowledge the significance of her.
    "I'm leaving soon, but I'm not afraid. If death is the end, I know that our dreams remain behind." -ZoŽ Castillo
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Do I want to spend more than two days with someone like her? - No way in hell.
    Same here. Two days is just too short, two years would be more to my liking. I love Zoe's personality, just as much as April's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AstralTraveller View Post
    Oh, come now. Liking having parties is an extrovert attribute? That's way, way off. Are you sure you know what these terms mean?
    Yes. Honestly I'm not sure you quite grasp it. An introvert is someone who feels mentally or emotionally drained in social situations. An introvert is likely to invite a small group of close people over. That's not what Zoe wanted. She wanted a big party and for her friends to bring boys, including one for her so that she could get it on with them. That's not the way an introvert would throw a party.

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralTraveller View Post
    (as of taking of clothes - have you ever been drunk and sexy at the same time? )
    Actually, no. I don't get drunk enough to lose control and it's a moot point anyway because I'm totally not sexy

    Quote Originally Posted by FohxMe View Post
    is all I'm going to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by FohxMe View Post
    Good bye.
    Quote Originally Posted by FohxMe View Post
    Nah, I just see it as a horribly weak way to undermine what I have said with something really outrageous. You've yet to succeed, though.
    You seem to have significant difficulty following through on your statements. Might want to work on that.
    Last edited by Miral; 03-10-2013 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Merged double post

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
    You seem to have significant difficulty following through on your statements. Might want to work on that.
    There's no reason to resort to personal attacks. Please keep it civil guys, we're just having a discussion.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    "I couldn't relate to this person at all". - I think this phrase means what it says: this PERSON is someone he doesn't like and don't want to spend more time with. I didn't see any "this character is poorly developed", or "she's a Mary-sue", or "this didn't seem too realistic or natural". For me the whole talk is about the personality, not the quality of a character.
    I respond to that with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
    Zoe came across as a very shallow and unlikeable character to me, which is a shame because I thought they had a great character in April Ryan... at least in the FIRST game.
    It's CLEAR he's only talking about her personality. Excuse my while my eyes are rolling, you can get a feel for my sarcasm in the mean time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Are you kidding me? You mean if I create a many-layered, well-developed, complex, realistic and believable maniac rapist murderer pedophile character, the quality of him as a character will NOT be a matter of separate discussion from his personality? I don't know what part of my statements you didn't understand. Because he's an asshole I would still be a bad actor? Or vice versa, if i create a real saint of a character who is also plain, not believable, unrealistic, banal and trite - the fact that he's such an angel will make up for my inability to write "quality characters"?
    Personality and character are MOST certainly a consequence of the other, I don't know why this is so hard to translate to you... You could be a sociopath if your character is a "many-layered, well-developed, complex, realistic and believable maniac rapist murderer pedophile"- or maybe even a well functioning addition to society- are you telling me that either way, you wouldn't want to get to the bottom of how and why they behave the way they do, based on who they are as a character? I don't understand why we can't look at one without dismissing the other.. I'm honestly confused. -_- Absolutely no one on earth is simply born that way, their character is shaped and conditioned, much like personality. A character that's a saint, while simultaneously being a hollow shell IS that way because there's no depth to them- they're unable to see the world as the disgusting, convoluted mess that it is. The way you described Zoe isn't wrong at all, and I think you've nailed her on the mark, I'm just trying to relay to you what I think is wrong in Blowhard's dismissal of her. You're simply siding with him because you have a similar opinion of her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    At this point it seems like you make no sense to me at all. What aesthetics are you talking about?
    Her traits as a person, the person she is on the forefront, the surface of her character, etc.. I'm saying that you're only arguing with what I've said because you don't appreciate these things about her. Which is a shame, really, but I do still think even after all this you're most certainly entitled to your opinion of her, because you've come to your conclusion after getting a sense of exactly who and what she is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Which begs a question: why then, after stating that "I don't like her" you accuse people of not understanding and grasping her "significance" as a character?
    I said that well before knowing exactly why you felt about her the way you did, so let me retract what I said: it only applies to people who think she's a 'shallow' character. Not behaving shallowly, but the presumptuous notion that she has no depth.
    "I'm leaving soon, but I'm not afraid. If death is the end, I know that our dreams remain behind." -ZoŽ Castillo
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by KHH View Post
    There's no reason to resort to personal attacks. Please keep it civil guys, we're just having a discussion.
    Aww, but it makes things more lively around here. I like it when passionate hatred flies rampant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
    Actually, no. I don't get drunk enough to lose control and it's a moot point anyway because I'm totally not sexy
    Are you being self-deprecating? Maybe you do have some redeeming qualities after all. Hmm.
    "I'm leaving soon, but I'm not afraid. If death is the end, I know that our dreams remain behind." -ZoŽ Castillo
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
    Yes. Honestly I'm not sure you quite grasp it. An introvert is someone who feels mentally or emotionally drained in social situations. An introvert is likely to invite a small group of close people over. That's not what Zoe wanted. She wanted a big party and for her friends to bring boys, including one for her so that she could get it on with them. That's not the way an introvert would throw a party.
    OK, I see the problem now. You're treating introversion and extroversion as if they were binary definitions. Well, they're not.
    Also, someone who feels drained in social situations is simply antisocial, which is not the same as introversion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstralTraveller View Post
    OK, I see the problem now. You're treating introversion and extroversion as if they were binary definitions. Well, they're not.
    Also, someone who feels drained in social situations is simply antisocial, which is not the same as introversion.
    That's not true at all. Feeling drained in social situations is not equal to antisocial. Feeling drained by social interactions vs energized by them is often the hallmark of the definition as can be seen in introductory psychology textbooks. And yes of course everyone is on a spectrum but I haven't seen any points put forth to demonstrate she is on the introverted end of it.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
    That's not true at all. Feeling drained in social situations is not equal to antisocial. Feeling drained by social interactions vs energized by them is often the hallmark of the definition as can be seen in introductory psychology textbooks. And yes of course everyone is on a spectrum but I haven't seen any points put forth to demonstrate she is on the introverted end of it.
    We've been reading quite different textbooks, then. And you're still thinking in binaries (no said anything about the introverted end), and you still haven't answered the question I put a lot of posts ago. Probably it would be a good idea to stop discussing this topic with each other now
    A fully working kitchen holds a great many things, not least of which is a huge collection of ways of committing horrible murder, plus multiple ways of getting rid of the evidence.

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    I find this discussion interesting, because it shows how we perceive people. While one may total dislike someone, another totally adores them. All three of the protagonist in DF are not liked by various people on this forum. The least likeable of the three for me was Kian. Initially I had a neutral opinion of him but when he stood by (he wasn't physically restrained by the Azadi) and let April die, I lost a lot of respect for him. But other people felt differently about that situation and that his inaction was understandable. It is all about perception, what annoys one person to no end may mean little or nothing at all to another.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Spoilsport...
    I usually stop arguments when they start to go around in circles. Bastard me, eh?

    But actually, I have a new point now, as I've just watched the Zoe-Damien encounter, which I didn't remember much. For Christ's sake, gals and guys, Zoe was putting her life on the line multiple times based on step by step instructions from Damien. You can argue if doing the Eingana run with a complete stranger was believable or not, but once they're through that, labelling Damien as the "cute guy I just met"... well, to be gentle, it is wildly inaccurate. And after this, and after learning that her friend (for whose sake she got herself into all this trouble) was probably dead, she did let on half a minute of her internal troubles (which was a valid, if somewhat forced answer to Damien's question) - what a complaining bitch, isn't she?

    I had a feeling that the anti-Zoe committee was making a mountain out of a molehill here of minute conversation items, but now I'm quite certain. You're welcome to not like Zoe, but the arguments about spilling her misery on everyone just don't make sense.
    A fully working kitchen holds a great many things, not least of which is a huge collection of ways of committing horrible murder, plus multiple ways of getting rid of the evidence.

  13. #58
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    I'm gonna stop responding now so I can still love all of you.. >.>
    "I'm leaving soon, but I'm not afraid. If death is the end, I know that our dreams remain behind." -ZoŽ Castillo
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Oh, good thing I've already got Astral talking then... ^.^
    I knew you were looking for trouble. Evil child.
    "I'm leaving soon, but I'm not afraid. If death is the end, I know that our dreams remain behind." -ZoŽ Castillo
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  15. #60
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    - People don't like the new ZoŽ
    - People don't like Kian bald

    Wondering if it's something wrong with April :P
    " They say that every story has a beginning and an end, but sometimes the two are one at the same time "

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