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Thread: Thread of All Worlds

  1. #1
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    It's hard to decide on one of them.

    For the first map: It was always possible to travel directly to/from the Guardians Realm. We are told - by Tobias I think - that the Guardian would open a portal to allow people in, but since Adrian was forced to leave his throne and the Realm, there were now no-one there who could "assist" or "allow" such a passage to open, therefore April had to use the hard approach, with the wormhole and the new plate, the "key".
    Also, I think that way is now closed, as the "key" is now part of the Realm... Therefore it's effectively impossible to reach it without the Guardians consent/help (unless of course the rules changed...)
    I think perhaps that I would go with the second one, because of the reasons stated above.
    April Ryan is my friend,
    Every sorrow she can mend.
    When i visit her dark realm,
    Does it simply overwhelm.

  3. #3
    Random Lurker Miral's Avatar
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    I prefer the second one. And nice graphics, BTW -- much better than my own attempt at a map.

    Although, a cross between the first and second might be better -- a doorway at the edge of the Realm like the first, but a portal to anywhere within Stark/Arcadia like the second. That seems to fit better with observed behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    You've reminded me. Can we consider April's "shift" as the same kind of a doorway as the one the Guardian opened?
    Just see: April is the chosen of the Balance, she's not the Guardian, but she's "the child of the Balance" whatever that means. I think she's just as important to the Balance (if not more) as the guardians. It would be pretty logical for the B. to give her free entrance anytime she wants it. April also opened a doorway for Crow twice already, and while in TLJ we consider this ability to be caused by the stone disc - the Key she's got, In Dreamfall she doesn't have it anymore, but she still brings Crow with her. So, she opens the doorway to it for someone else, like the Guardians do. Maybe her "means" of travelling to the realm and inviting someone else are the same as those of the Guardians'?
    I don't think she could in TLJ, but maybe passing the trials (even without actually becoming Guardian) has granted her that ability? Or maybe it's just that the rules have changed now that the Realm is running on a different disc and that there's no longer a "spare key".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    I decided that we should have one thread which would be for all discussions related questions about where worlds are and where they lead and so on, in other ways:
    ...
    (For now I'm skipping Winter and the Dollhouse.)
    Why, Crow? Why? They're just as important (although admittedly, it's me that doesn't want to deal with them. Can we at least call it "the Black House" and not "the Dollhouse"?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    1. As you can see here - http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/w...8/worlds01.png - There are two sorts of connection. Between Stark and Arcadia there is n direct connection, each world is connected to the world of dreams and it provides ability to go to the other.
    This means that the Storytime = the Divide (in the sense that it's a noun and not just the past event, as many characters refer to the Divide as a spatial obstacle). This isn't necessarily a problem, as we are told that to Shift between worlds one must pass through the world of dreams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    As for Guardian's realm, it is connected to both worlds directly, and in two ways. One is what we were introduced to in TLJ: wormhole. Now, we KNOW that te wormhole is in Stark, but we were never told whether the similar hole is in Arcadia, or not. But then, nobody in that game has bothered to think about it either, so probably it was in both worlds.
    I don't think so. The characters always speak about it in the singular: Cortez refers to "the gateway" and Tobias says "There is one" and refers to "the point where the Divide was first created, where the tower was built." Actually, this might tell us that locations aren't duplicated in each world, but that the original Earth was split into two smaller parts at the time of the Divide. Do we need to include 'Space' in our maps? Are Stark and Arcadia limited to the planet Earth itself, and the rest of the universe is Divide-free?

    Then again, the Dark People prepare the star map in Arcadia, and the Flipper dates it (I always found this a weak point: did it age suddenly when April Shifted?) in Stark to extrapolate an astronomical point in their sky based on their historical processions. Could this mean that Stark and Arcadia share (outer) space after all?

    Anyway, we saw it close after the three of them entered. I think it's a bit of a moot point now, as it's closed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    The second way is the one we saw in Dreamfall - April's so-called shift. Which, in this version also leads to the Guardian's realm directly, without passing anything else. This way, in this version Guardian's realm is connected to the twin worlds themselves, and the world of dreams doesn't come on the way to them.
    As far as we know, Shifting always involves passing through the world of dreams (although that WAS described in the specific context of moving between the Two Worlds). I think it might be a bit too confusing to mix up TLJ and DF-era cosmologies, however. As the White told April "Everything's changed".

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    P.S. And how do you like the "map"?
    Best graphics so far!

    Quote Originally Posted by KHH View Post
    since Adrian was forced to leave his throne and the Realm, there were now no-one there who could "assist" or "allow" such a passage to open, therefore April had to use the hard approach, with the wormhole and the new plate, the "key".
    Actually, although I cleary haven't thought about it since first playing TLJ, Adrian was what was necessary for April to get into the Guardian's Realm.

    April: If they have him, how are we going to get him back? And why do they need him? Why do we need him?
    Cortez : He left his realm. but he's the last Guardian, and only he can open the doorway back to his realm to let his successor through. The Vanguard knows this, but what they don't know -- yet -- is how to get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by KHH View Post
    Also, I think that way is now closed, as the "key" is now part of the Realm... Therefore it's effectively impossible to reach it without the Guardians consent/help (unless of course the rules changed...)
    Of course they have! That's what the White told them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    You've reminded me. Can we consider April's "shift" as the same kind of a doorway as the one the Guardian opened?
    Just see: April is the chosen of the Balance, she's not the Guardian, but she's "the child of the Balance" whatever that means. I think she's just as important to the Balance (if not more) as the guardians. It would be pretty logical for the B. to give her free entrance anytime she wants it.
    Maybe... we've never seen the one the Guardian-that-was opened. Tobias referred to it as a "gateway".

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    April also opened a doorway for Crow twice already, and while in TLJ we consider this ability to be caused by the stone disc - the Key she's got, In Dreamfall she doesn't have it anymore, but she still brings Crow with her.
    Could it be that Crow can help her Shift to the Guardian's Realm because he's still got... background noise attached to him since his last visit? Was he "tainted" by it? The White is a bit vague in this part of the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miral View Post
    I don't think she could in TLJ, but maybe passing the trials (even without actually becoming Guardian) has granted her that ability? Or maybe it's just that the rules have changed now that the Realm is running on a different disc and that there's no longer a "spare key".
    Could be either, but your second point is important. As there's no longer any spare key to the Realm, it has to be more open in case it needs fixing. Then again, maybe the spare key is only good for one Guardian, and after that: Reunification.

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    Maybe the wormhole only exists in Stark because anyone in Arcadia with sufficient magical knowledge could get there?

    The Guardian's Realm, though between worlds, certainly seems magical to me...

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    Helpless dragon Skizzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Hehe, I like this title
    I decided that we should have one thread which would be for all discussions related questions about where worlds are and where they lead and so on, in other ways: How the universe constructed (in TLJ world, of course), because no matter which worlds we start talking about, we'll need to mention others as well, and it's a bit annoying to write the same things in several threads.


    For the begining, I'm wondering about twin worlds and the guardian's realm. I've come up with three "maps' which are very similar, but there's a difference: (For now I'm skipping Winter and the Dollhouse.)


    1. As you can see here - http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/w...8/worlds01.png - There are two sorts of connection. Between Stark and Arcadia there is n direct connection, each world is connected to the world of dreams and it provides ability to go to the other. As for Guardian's realm, it is connected to both worlds directly, and in two ways. One is what we were introduced to in TLJ: wormhole. Now, we KNOW that te wormhole is in Stark, but we were never told whether the similar hole is in Arcadia, or not. But then, nobody in that game has bothered to think about it either, so probably it was in both worlds. The second way is the one we saw in Dreamfall - April's so-called shift. Which, in this version also leads to the Guardian's realm directly, without passing anything else. This way, in this version Guardian's realm is connected to the twin worlds themselves, and the world of dreams doesn't come on the way to them.

    2. In this one - http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/w...8/worlds02.png - there's another version "shifting" to the realm. It passes to the world of Dreams, but the wormhole stays the same way. As far as we know, the wormhole was left where the divide was created. But it's like it's a crack at the border between dimensions. It's believable that it wouldn't have a "corridor" through one more dimension. As for the portal that April opens, we don't know for sure what kind of a portal it is. so there's a chance that it does go through dreams.

    3. And the third one - http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/w...8/worlds03.png - here both "roads" to the Guardian's realm lead through the Dreaming.

    Which do you think is the most believable? ^-^

    P.S. And how do you like the "map"?
    I like the map: it shows the different views clearly.

    I think the second map is the most likely one. The wormhole in Stark to reach the Guardian's Realm is definately at a fixed place, while Shifting (at least between Stark and Arcadia) is not restricted to certain locations (which brings up the question: can a Shifter use his or her abilities to Shift from one place in Stark to another place in Stark? Or in Arcadia for that matter?). I think a wormhole similar to the one in Stark would exist in Arcadia. I also believe that April actually Shifted to the Guardian's Realm in Dreamfall in the same way as she Shifted between worlds in TLJ, albeit with the help from Crow (without whom the White tells us she cannot Shift). Your second picture fits this image.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    April also opened a doorway for Crow twice already, and while in TLJ we consider this ability to be caused by the stone disc - the Key she's got, In Dreamfall she doesn't have it anymore, but she still brings Crow with her. So, she opens the doorway to it for someone else, like the Guardians do. Maybe her "means" of travelling to the realm and inviting someone else are the same as those of the Guardians'?
    I do not think April entered the Guardian's Realm in Dreamfall the same way as in TLJ. In Dreamfall she Shifted (and actually needs Crow to be able to do it, we are told), while in TLJ she enters through the wormhole. We know from TLJ that only the Guardian can (at least at that point) allow a person to enter the Guardian's Realm. Apparently this has nothing to do with the new disc. Therefore, Adrian would be the key, not the disc.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    I don't think so. The characters always speak about it in the singular: Cortez refers to "the gateway" and Tobias says "There is one" and refers to "the point where the Divide was first created, where the tower was built." Actually, this might tell us that locations aren't duplicated in each world, but that the original Earth was split into two smaller parts at the time of the Divide. Do we need to include 'Space' in our maps? Are Stark and Arcadia limited to the planet Earth itself, and the rest of the universe is Divide-free?
    An interesting point. I still think that there is a wormhole to the Guardian's realm in Arcadia, similar to the one in Stark. Wasn't Tobias referring to a point in the world before the Divide?

    It is the Guardian that has to open up the Realm for a successor (at least at the time of TLJ). Would a Guardian be forced to always open up the wormhole in Stark space for a new Guardian to enter? That would have caused some problems for previous Guardians from Stark, before they could travel to space. I think we can therefore assume that the Guardian can open up a portal (maybe even a Shift) at other locations as well, both in Stark and in Arcadia.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Then again, the Dark People prepare the star map in Arcadia, and the Flipper dates it (I always found this a weak point: did it age suddenly when April Shifted?) in Stark to extrapolate an astronomical point in their sky based on their historical processions. Could this mean that Stark and Arcadia share (outer) space after all?
    I am sure this has been discussed already, but if we look at the bigger time/space picture, who says that a Shift isn't only through space, but also through time? Although I'm not very enthousiastic about this theory myself, especially with Zoe ending up in the same era in Arcadia as April Shifted to, while Zoe is a Dreamer and not a Shifter, but it would explain the age of the document.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Actually, although I cleary haven't thought about it since first playing TLJ, Adrian was what was necessary for April to get into the Guardian's Realm.
    Exactly. Adrian decided who could enter the Realm; not the disc.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Could be either, but your second point is important. As there's no longer any spare key to the Realm, it has to be more open in case it needs fixing. Then again, maybe the spare key is only good for one Guardian, and after that: Reunification.
    Why does it have to be more open in case it needs fixing? They had a backup plan when they created the twin worlds and now that plan has been used. Maybe they simply didn't have a backup-backup plan. However, April does enter the Guardian's Realm through a Shift (at least I think it is a Shift) in Dreamfall. Now this could be because Gordon allows it. The White suggests that Shifting is a 'common' way to enter the Guardian's Realm, but that could go against the Guardian deciding whether a person can enter or not. There are of course several possibilities (please: no knock-knock jokes), but I think that basically April has some sort of 'free access' pass; April has been marked by Gorden as safe, so she can enter the Realm whenever she wants. It's not that Gordon has to actually let her in every time she would try to enter.
    'Demons run when a good man goes to war.' - River Song (Doctor Who)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    This means that the Storytime = the Divide (in the sense that it's a noun and not just the past event, as many characters refer to the Divide as a spatial obstacle). This isn't necessarily a problem, as we are told that to Shift between worlds one must pass through the world of dreams.
    But since Storytime has existed forever, how could the newly created Divide be it?

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Do we need to include 'Space' in our maps? Are Stark and Arcadia limited to the planet Earth itself, and the rest of the universe is Divide-free?
    There's really no need to. As long as you make sure that Starkian things that's been to space falls down in Stark and not Arcadia. The Arcadians can't travel to Space with magic alone, it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Then again, the Dark People prepare the star map in Arcadia, and the Flipper dates it (I always found this a weak point: did it age suddenly when April Shifted?) in Stark to extrapolate an astronomical point in their sky based on their historical processions. Could this mean that Stark and Arcadia share (outer) space after all?
    Are you sure they prepare it then and there? They could have created it a while ago. Well... unless the dialogue contradicts it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Actually, although I cleary haven't thought about it since first playing TLJ, Adrian was what was necessary for April to get into the Guardian's Realm.
    That's a good point. But why do they call the plate for a "key" then.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Of course they have! That's what the White told them.
    Yeah, but everything can't have changed...

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Could it be that Crow can help her Shift to the Guardian's Realm because he's still got... background noise attached to him since his last visit? Was he "tainted" by it? The White is a bit vague in this part of the conversation.
    It might as well have been April that got "tainted".
    Actually, it kinda makes sense that they both got "tainted", together, and that's why April can't travel there alone. Since she needed help from Crow to save the 3rd task.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzo View Post
    Although I'm not very enthousiastic about this theory myself, especially with Zoe ending up in the same era in Arcadia as April Shifted to, while Zoe is a Dreamer and not a Shifter, but it would explain the age of the document.
    Actually, we're never told the age. It's just that Flipper thinks it's old.
    That's hardly a surprise, I'm sure parchment and ink isn't the preferred method of writing the the 23rd century.
    Last edited by KHH; 08-04-2009 at 09:58 AM.
    April Ryan is my friend,
    Every sorrow she can mend.
    When i visit her dark realm,
    Does it simply overwhelm.

  8. #8
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    I like the job you've done. ANd I like the first one the best. Perhaps The Winter though exists only in our imaginations?? It all makes me feel like I'm inside the only synogogue with Vestrum Tobias. That kind of feels like a whole other world to me. ANd also a place with passages through to see everything else. What about a world where the world's of science and magic are connected like from 12,000 years ago?? From the longest journey Vestrum Tobias showed it to April when she first shifted by means of Chavez Cortez "The Dragon". But I like the first one best!!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    and the Flipper dates it
    You just don't like people without legs having a love-life.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    As the White told April "Everything's changed".
    I admit I laughed when she said that in the game the first time I was playing. A friend of mine worked as a continuity manager in the film industry, and that's on her list of "CYA" phrases when you don't have a continuity "bible" available or you can't look something up to make sure it's not messing with something in continuity. Apparently it's a device used a lot in sequels.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Could it be that Crow can help her Shift to the Guardian's Realm because he's still got... background noise attached to him since his last visit? Was he "tainted" by it? The White is a bit vague in this part of the conversation.
    I'm a firm believer that belief is a defining factor in determining reality (the Nameless One would say that's obvious, but that's a different game) and that faith sustains it in TLJ/DF. I'm convinced that April can't Shift because she doesn't want to. At first, it was probably the disruptions with the cosmos with Gordon cleaning house, but afterwards? It's just denial. Acknowledging she could Shift would mean she'd wouldn't have a handy excuse of it being out of her power to go and speak with Charlie and Emma as well as the idea of going back to Stark and being a nobody, whereas in Arcadia she can't take a walk across a street without new race of beings or hoary group of elders bestowing her with another grandiose title and nobody knows about the good and faithful friends she pretty much just ran out on and abandoned.(1)

    I think that Crow's presence acts as something of a touchstone - a reminder to April's subconscious that she can still do this stuff, and with a nudge from the White she can open up Shifts once more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzo View Post
    An interesting point. I still think that there is a wormhole to the Guardian's realm in Arcadia, similar to the one in Stark. Wasn't Tobias referring to a point in the world before the Divide?
    That's an interesting point. I've always thought of the worlds of Stark and Arcadia being "complete" unto themselves, but perhaps that's not the case. Perhaps the united world wasn't 75% ocean and when Stark and Arcadia were split, they each received half of the landmass. In that case, perhaps the tower really only did exist on one of the worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzo View Post
    I am sure this has been discussed already, but if we look at the bigger time/space picture, who says that a Shift isn't only through space, but also through time? Although I'm not very enthousiastic about this theory myself, especially with Zoe ending up in the same era in Arcadia as April Shifted to, while Zoe is a Dreamer and not a Shifter, but it would explain the age of the document.
    Maybe I'm mis-remembering something or attributing something to Ragnar that was said by someone else, but IIRC, Ragnar has stated before he hates time travel because it's a huge can of worms.





    (1) And it's cost Charlie and Emma, I think. While it can be argued that Charlie and Emma both have moved on with their lives - Charlie's a club owner and Emma's some successful artist (very successful is the impression I get), I don't think either of them have ever let go. Emma's clearly spent a lot of time and money tracking down what April said and seeing if it was truth. And Charlie? He may not search for April, but you can read a lot into the fact that despite the fact that Venice is a cesspit now, Charlie still hangs around. One has to wonder...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzo View Post
    Would a Guardian be forced to always open up the wormhole in Stark space for a new Guardian to enter?
    I understood that to mean he would open a Shift right next to the Guardian-to-be. Maybe he'd poke a beckoning finger through.

    Quote Originally Posted by KHH View Post
    Are you sure they prepare it then and there? They could have created it a while ago. Well... unless the dialogue contradicts it.
    No, it doesn't, so it could have.

    Quote Originally Posted by KHH View Post
    That's a good point. But why do they call the plate for a "key" then.
    That was something else I meant to raise, but evidently forgot. We discover through experience that the disc is the key to the Tower, but I don't remember the character referring to it as such. *sigh* All these things made perfect sense when I first played TLJ, and they're just unravelling as the memories fade.

    Quote Originally Posted by KHH View Post
    Actually, we're never told the age. It's just that Flipper thinks it's old.
    No, he dates the parchment it's written on so he can calculate how much the astronomical bodies have moved in the intervening centuries. So it HAS to be old for his method of calculation to work.

  11. #11
    Helpless dragon Skizzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    No, he dates the parchment it's written on so he can calculate how much the astronomical bodies have moved in the intervening centuries. So it HAS to be old for his method of calculation to work.
    Remind me: how can people from Arcadia make a map which can be used in Stark? Does this mean that the stars and planets in both world are alligned the same way?
    'Demons run when a good man goes to war.' - River Song (Doctor Who)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    I understood that to mean he would open a Shift right next to the Guardian-to-be. Maybe he'd poke a beckoning finger through.
    But the Guardians-to-be would have to have the whole deal explained first. Isn't it likely that they'd be approached by one of the Draic Kin, and they'd explain it all. And then the Guardian extended his invitation and they went through the trials and all?

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    No, it doesn't, so it could have.
    That's it then


    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    That was something else I meant to raise, but evidently forgot. We discover through experience that the disc is the key to the Tower, but I don't remember the character referring to it as such. *sigh* All these things made perfect sense when I first played TLJ, and they're just unravelling as the memories fade.
    Humans and their imperfect memory ... :s

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    No, he dates the parchment it's written on so he can calculate how much the astronomical bodies have moved in the intervening centuries. So it HAS to be old for his method of calculation to work.
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzo View Post
    Remind me: how can people from Arcadia make a map which can be used in Stark? Does this mean that the stars and planets in both world are alligned the same way?
    It's not explained, but I presume they share the universe at large. It's just the worlds themselves that's separated.
    April Ryan is my friend,
    Every sorrow she can mend.
    When i visit her dark realm,
    Does it simply overwhelm.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzo View Post
    Remind me: how can people from Arcadia make a map which can be used in Stark? Does this mean that the stars and planets in both world are alligned the same way?
    Logically, it has to. I've always just assumed that Ragnar didn't think it through properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Aaaaand, why not the Dollhoue? O_o It IS the dollhouse Of course, we can call it both names.
    Because I got used to calling it the Black House over 2 years of development. And we can sidestep that awful Joss Whedon show, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    I'm not sure Storytime=divide is the right formula. Well... maybe... a part of the Storytime has become it, yeah... But the whole storytime couldn't be just stuck between world... I think.
    Either am I, I was just pointing out you might need to put the Divide into your map, as there's nothing else separating your worlds in one method of Shifting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    But if the wormhole was in one world only, they should specify it: "Wormhole was left somewhere in Stark". But they never did.
    Again, I think because Ragnar put it in space, it could only be reached through Stark, so he didn't really think about specifying which world. Heck, it's been 10 years and we've barely worried about it until now. I think he's done pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    And I do think that the divide wasn't limited by the Earth only. Because if there had been two Earths going around in one space, it would be noticed two centuries before TLJ. Plus, can you imagine howeasy it woul be to travel from one world to the other? A simple spaceship would allow it.
    That depends. I can see it as entirely possible if you go up out of Stark there wouldn't be an intersection letting you pick which world to return to, so that's not really a problem. Things get more complicated, however, when you consider that satellites, etc., might be visible from the ground in Arcadia. Again, it comes to a question of 'how far?' the Divide extends.This always makes me think of the inter-stellar colonies. Were they cut off because they couldn't exist after Gordon's 'hard-reset' of the Balance, or simply because people on Earth had no way to reach/communicate with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    That's a disturbing one. Why would it close anyway? Was it for one time use only or what?
    Well, that depends on when it opened up fully. I can imagine it being entirely possible it was nothing more than a pin-prick that widened upon Adrian's closeness. Surely a black hole that close to Earth would have been both mapped earlier AND a major cause of concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    She just couldn't bother herself and say what has changed, could she?
    I know: stupid Kin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Tobias: "But with the Guardian gone... The only way in would be the point where the Divide was first created, where the tower was built." It probably means that the wormhole can be accessed without a guardian as well. Of course, not just like that, but with the "disc that is the key". But then again, I guess Cortez might know more, he's a Draic Kin, after all. OR, he's lying to April...
    Maybe... I don't know what to make of it. As I quoted before:

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Cortez: He left his realm. But he's the last Guardian, and only he can open the doorway back to his realm to let his successor through. The Vanguard knows this, but what they don't know -- yet -- is how to get there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    I'm not sure. Tobias said that for creating the divide, for keeping worlds apart both science and technologies were needed. My guess is that the Realm is fueled by something stronger than only pure magic. Either both forces together, or Dreams, or the Draic Kin power.
    Or everything above.
    Well, Gordon told April in DF it wasn't Dreams (otherwise he might give a shit about what's going on). And while magic plays a huge role, I'm sure Science is just as important. It's just... harder to represent, is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Nooo. The Guardians' were opening "gateways" but withut the Guardian the wormhole was the only way in. From what we know, it seems lik the wormhole was ALWAYS opened, and the guardian's had nothing to do with it. So your version of the opening "shift-alike portals is the only guess we're left with.
    When April is looking for the entrance to the Guardian's Realm, she consistently asks about a "gateway". I don't remember her ever using the word, but it's possible she calls it a wormhole after seeing it.

    [QUOTE=Quna;83584]Noooo1 Not that! I don't think ragnar wold pull uch a things. It just ruins the beautiful system of TLJ world.

    A "beautiful system" that, 10 years later, we're still arguing about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    What about going to another planet and looking "down" to Earth from there? If the space is divide-free, it should have access to both worlds.
    Whoa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    hehe! imagne the Guardian-who-is playing jokes on the Guardian-who-will-be, by poking and instantly closing the portal before that one turns bac to see who it was
    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Or, maybe they WERE aligned at first. And then, both worlds were changing being influenced by different forces, so it made them different from each other... or not. We don't really know. but it would be very logical them to be the same at first, because... they are twin worlds
    That can't be true, because Burns wouldn't have been able to calculate their movements.

  14. #14
    Helpless dragon Skizzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Well, Flipper asks April if she'd robbed a museum or something, so that means the map actually looked ancient. However, there might be an explanation that they used old paper, or not old, but old fasioned. The style of it could make it look ancient as well. Another possibility. Here are some quotes from TLJ:

    The Blue of the Draic Kin:
    "I speak with...the Dark People... They are...my messengers. They have...prepared a map...for you, with the...entrance you are...looking for."

    A Dark person: "A map of stars. Yes. It was made for you in our library, and given to me to hold. It is yours, now. Keep it well. It is the only one."

    You might notice that it was never said that the map had been made only recently. Considering that the prophecies about April had been made thousands of years ago, they could have had prepared the map a very long time ago.
    Since Flipper had to recalculate the positions of the stars based on the map, I think we can assume that it is actually ancient, and not just ancient-looking. It would also make more sense to make a map of the location of the wormhole immediately after the worlds were divided, simply because the location was still known then.




    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    That's a disturbing one. Why would it close anyway? Was it for one time use only or what?
    Didn't the wormhole (which withouth a Guardian present was the only way to enter the realm) simply close because there was a proper Guardian (Gordon) in the Realm again? This would also fit with the disc-being-a-key-theory. Adrian was the old Guardian, so he could enter; April had the disc, sho she could enter; Gordon was the new Guardian, so he could enter.

    Quote Originally Posted by KHH View Post
    There's really no need to. As long as you make sure that Starkian things that's been to space falls down in Stark and not Arcadia. The Arcadians can't travel to Space with magic alone, it seems.
    But the Draic Kin can travel through space. That is how they got there in the first place. This happened before the Divide, but the Blue Kin talks about the Day of Ascension, when the Kin will return to their home. This might also be after Reunification, but the Kin apparently are not inhibited by the Divide to use magic (the fight between Cortez and McAllen).

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Actually, nothing in any o the maps indicate that any of the "gateways" is fixed on one place. Not having a passage simply means that the portal doesn't go thorugh anything else, unlike shifts. The shift is: one world - Dreaming - the other world. While this kind of a portal is one world - Guardian's Realm. There's nothing in between.
    My vision has to do with my definition of a wormhole, which basically is a black hole/portal at a fixed point. It will also take you to a fixed point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Nooo. The Guardians' were opening "gateways" but withut the Guardian the wormhole was the only way in. From what we know, it seems lik the wormhole was ALWAYS opened, and the guardian's had nothing to do with it. So your version of the opening "shift-alike portals is the only guess we're left with.
    Couldn't the wormhole have simply opened the moment there was no longer a Guardian in the Realm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    I'm not sure how much it has to do with Gordon. Firstly, Gordon says he's surprised seeing her. secondly, if he'd in some way sensed she wanted to enter the Realm, wouldn't he open the portal or her earlier?
    I think you've misunderstood me, since we're basically saying the same. April may enter freely because of her 'free acces pass'. That means she doesn't need permission from Gordon, which in turn means that he won't know if and when she'll enter.

    Edit: And of course Andrew posted just before I did

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    That depends. I can see it as entirely possible if you go up out of Stark there wouldn't be an intersection letting you pick which world to return to, so that's not really a problem. Things get more complicated, however, when you consider that satellites, etc., might be visible from the ground in Arcadia. Again, it comes to a question of 'how far?' the Divide extends.This always makes me think of the inter-stellar colonies. Were they cut off because they couldn't exist after Gordon's 'hard-reset' of the Balance, or simply because people on Earth had no way to reach/communicate with them?
    You could just look at the two worlds as being different dimensions. Then there wouldn't be an issue about how far the Divide would stretch.



    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    That can't be true, because Burns wouldn't have been able to calculate their movements.
    Not necessarily. If at the moment of the Divide both worlds got their own wormhole at the same location, both wormholes would from that point on have to answer to the laws of physics/magic of that particular world (given that the two worlds are actually two different dimensions as stated above). This means that the point of origin of the wormholes is the same, but their actual location at the time of TLJ might be different. Still, if the Dark People made their map just after the Divide, Flipper would be able to recalculate the location of the Starkian wormhole based upon that map, regardless of whether the Arcadian wormhole would be at the same location or not.
    Last edited by Skizzo; 08-05-2009 at 08:18 AM.
    'Demons run when a good man goes to war.' - River Song (Doctor Who)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzo View Post
    You could just look at the two worlds as being different dimensions. Then there wouldn't be an issue about how far the Divide would stretch.
    I always had the impression that Arcadia and Stark occupy the same position in the universe - the night sky should look identical. I had the impression that for the most part, an experienced Shifter would end up on the equivalent spot in the other world when they went through unless there was some sort of magical influence that pulled you somewhere else.

    In fact, I think it may have been TLJ where they were discussing the problems if you tried to Shift and the other side was solid rock or inside the wall of a building? Or perhaps that was another story. I'm reading too many of these alternative reality stories these days - they're sort of bleeding into each other.

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