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Thread: April Ryan is not dead. I have proof. *spoilers?*

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Nope: they weren't there when April turned up.
    The children weren't there but they are irrelevant (to this point). I don't want to go play all of TLJ agains but I distinctly remember April and Lady Alvane having a conversation with each other. "who are you?" " Now is not the time" something like that. "The door won't lead..." April leaves through the door and goes to Arcadia.

    In any event this thread starter didn't bring conclusive proof, and didn't state any new insight. And judging by his/her last line he/she isn't coming back to look at the thread...

  2. #17
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    This all comes back to Ragnar's denial in the afore-linked post that he will engage in any kind of crappy Time-Fooleryô:

    "Oh, and by the way, for those of you who wonder: I believe that time-travel is often a cheap and dirty solution to a difficult problem - a deus ex machina - and while I'm not saying there isn't time-travel in the TLJ universe; if it is, it certainly won't be cheap & dirty. And Lady Alvane's encounter with April Ryan halfway through the story isn't necessarily what it appears to be. Threads are intertwined not just across worlds, but across the ages; beginnings are sometimes endings; there are places where time does not move in a straight line - where time is irrelevant - and those places are closer than we think; and yes, this is all painfully obtuse, but, hey!, it's my journal. I get to do whatever I want to do.

    Without revealing any great secrets - it's way too early for that - the TLJ saga is most definitely heading towards a grand conclusion...involving, amongst other grand and epic revelations, the Truth about Lady Alvane (which the Germans aren't privy to).

    But that won't happen in the next game, because the next game is just part two, so you'll have to stay patient and stick with me. There are miles to walk yet."

  3. #18
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    @ WAndrew: no fair. You can't use outside the game knowledge!! I don't play the game with the developer diary in hand...that's like playing the game in reverse order or something. I'm kidding around.

    Time and order don't mean a great deal to Mr. T...for example there is a frame narrative within a frame narrative in DF and the end comes before the beginning in both cases. It's so clever it's meaningless.

  4. #19
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trilless View Post
    @ WAndrew: no fair. You can't use outside the game knowledge!! I don't play the game with the developer diary in hand...that's like playing the game in reverse order or something. I'm kidding around.


    Quote Originally Posted by trilless View Post
    Time and order don't mean a great deal to Mr. T...for example there is a frame narrative within a frame narrative in DF and the end comes before the beginning in both cases. It's so clever it's meaningless.
    Zing.

  5. #20
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    Sorry, this post contains a rambling thought process.

    Let's put it this way.

    Imagine Dreamfall had never happened and we'd never heard Ragnar's comments. Then look at the scenes of Lady Alvane with April and at the end. Did anyone, playing through it, honestly think Lady Alvane WASN'T April? Because if Lady Alvane isn't April, none of this makes sense - Crow's presence, April finding her oddly familiar, even at 18, and the way Lady Alvane speaks. I know there's a theory that Lady Alvane is Zoe, but the parallels with April seem pretty numerous to me.

    Thing is, now we have Kian in Dreamfall with the same surname, but April has apparently gone to the big art studio in the sky. The obvious answer is that despite the evidence, a) both Kian and April survive(d) and b) they get hitched. I get a sinking feeling this might be the way things are going, but all the points I'd make have already been made - there are other ways to get someone's surname, they could be related, blah blah.

    But we don't know where Kian's family is: he's an orphan like April. So we don't know how he got his surname. It could be from his adopted family, if any - or some sort of Azadi honorific.

    Actually, our poor orphaned April seems a bit confused. In TLJ she was clearly linked to the Draic Kin; in Dreamfall she seems to be tossed out in the cold again. But she's not actually shown much interest in finding her real family in Dreamfall anyway, despite being in a uniquely good position to find 'em. Go figure.

    Then again, Lady Alvane, if she's still a part of the proceedings, has made no effort to help or contact April despite the danger she's been in. That falls under time paradox stuff ("I didn't get any help when I was her age, so it'd be a contradiction if I helped her") but it comes back to this bizarre White Lady business. Someone is looking out for April, whatever their definition of 'save' seems to be, so it's not unreasonable.

    The only other explanation I can think of is that TLJ history is being rewritten because it doesn't fit in with the 'spiritual sequel' (not DIRECT sequel), Dreamfall, which would be really, really annoying.

  6. #21
    Dreamworld Member Barentity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    but it comes back to this bizarre White Lady business. Someone is looking out for April, whatever their definition of 'save' seems to be, so it's not unreasonable.
    So Lady Alvane could be the White Lady? Now there's a thought I hadn't heard before. Some good theorising there!

    I've said it before, that my original interpretation was that the timeline would have to be altered so that April survives, and ZoŽ is the one to do that. How convenient, then, that she's in the Storytime, which just happens to be the root of all manifest reality! I imagined that by telling the story to the Vagabond, but tactfully changing it so that April survives, it would actually become true.

    However, I do now prefer the idea of April's ancestry - i.e. being daughter of the White of the Kin - grants her an immunity to being stabbed in the stomach, the same immunity that I hope grants Cortez (and his brother) to survive falling off a skyscraper.

    I agree that it seems as though they fully intended for players to interpret Lady Alvane as April; though maybe it was to throw us off the scent later.

  7. #22
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    Ah, the White-Lady-is-Lady-Alvane theory has been around here for a while, I think. We have a list somewhere. I'm just running around with other ideas in my head about what's going on.

  8. #23
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    Let's put it this way.

    Imagine Dreamfall had never happened and we'd never heard Ragnar's comments. Then look at the scenes of Lady Alvane with April and at the end. Did anyone, playing through it, honestly think Lady Alvane WASN'T April?
    Well, when you put it THAT way... no. And I DO think Ragnar is spreading uncertainty because he regrets making something that might have made a nice reveal in a later game so obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    I know there's a theory that Lady Alvane is Zoe, but the parallels with April seem pretty numerous to me.
    I still can't get past the accent thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    Thing is, now we have Kian in Dreamfall with the same surname, but April has apparently gone to the big art studio in the sky.
    I still find Ragnar's comment about her "spiritual" (as opposed to (Zoe's) physical) death reassures me she's not dead dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    Ah, the White-Lady-is-Lady-Alvane theory has been around here for a while, I think. We have a list somewhere.
    OH yeah: over here.

  9. #24
    Dreamworld Member Barentity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    I still find Ragnar's comment about her "spiritual" (as opposed to (Zoe's) physical) death reassures me she's not dead dead.
    He says that he doesn't want to spoil the end, so he just mentions her 'spiritual' death. If he said that she dies, it would be spoiling the end. If anything, I take that comment to mean that she's actually dead.

  10. #25
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    I think the point about her being 'spiritually dead' just refers to her attitude throughout Dreamfall. April's either physically dead or she's not.

    If she's physically dead, it's going to take more than a plot device to get out of the hole that's dug, because April was far from finished with her destiny. Unless of course that's all been retconned out now.

    If she's not dead, I'm not sure what the point of apparently killing her was, other than creating a DUN DUN DUN!!!-tune-in-next-week! cliffhanger. (Though as we know, falling from a height cures all ills. See RPG Rule 143.)

    As a writer, I generally like to think that once a character's been killed, they belong dead. But from a fan's point of view, I personally hope April isn't dead. It's hard to get out of the habit of rooting for her. (I also hope that if she isn't dead and returns in Dreamfall Chapters, she's stopped being so damn gloomy for no good reason.)

    Ho hum.
    Last edited by Tullis; 05-27-2007 at 05:34 PM.

  11. #26
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    I think the point about her being 'spiritually dead' just refers to her attitude throughout Dreamfall. April's either physically dead or she's not.
    I'm sure that's how Ragnar intended that to be taken but I like the idea that, if they had to end in either spiritual or physical death, April ended in spiritual and Zoe ended in physical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    It's hard to get out of the habit of rooting for her.
    *is a juvenile Australian and giggles*

  12. #27
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    Damn you, Wandrew, not this again.

  13. #28
    Random Lurker Miral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tullis View Post
    It's hard to get out of the habit of rooting for her.
    *is a juvenile Australian and giggles*
    "Rooting" as in "digging through the ground"? That's appropriate for someone last seen falling into a swamp [Yes, I know what you were actually thinking of.]

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Yes indeedy, we all remember Lady Alvane from TLJ. You may not be aware of Game Designer Ragnar Tornquist's blog, but in an old post (one I can't find while the wiki is down. Anyone else?) he advised caution in identifying Lady Alvane with an old April. So we'll have to believe it when we see it.
    As mentioned above, the only practical conclusion you can draw from TLJ is that lady Alvane is April and I'm presuming this was the designers' intention at that point.

    However, the details are vague enough that they could make her someone else if they so choose. It's not inconceivable that Ragnar, et al. might change the story as they go along.

    So I'd interpret such a statement as: "There's a lot of story left, and I made it vague enough that Lady Alvane could be whoever the heck I want her to be, so don't place your bets yet cause I might just change my mind."

    -------

    Anyway, just wanted to throw in a little anti-Zoe/pro-April theory. IIRC, the dialouge between April and Lady Alvane in TLJ suggests that Lady Alvane opened, or at least helped April open the shift to her house. The implication being that Lady Alvane knew to open the shift at that time.

    If Lady Alvane is April, she would have known to open the shift because she remembered how it happened in her past (this is your typical cyclical causality paradox that authors love to explore when messing with time travel - it can't logically be started, but once it occurs once, it always occurs).

    It's not apparent from Dreamfall that April explained or even had a chance to explain this event to Zoe, so how would Zoe know to open the shift at the appropriate time?

  15. #30
    Dreamer ravenwoods's Avatar
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    if LA was White Dragon then shw wouldn't call Crow, Crow she would call him "funny bird"! I love how she says that!

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