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Thread: Anyone read Otherland?

  1. #16
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    P.S. It's the famous Georgian "The knight in the panter's skin" I'm talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kni...her's_Skin
    I've never heard of it, but it looks right up my alley!

    And why did the Soviets like Pushkin?

  2. #17
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Are you kidding? Because he was Russian. No, there were more reasons than that. He was really a great writer. And I don't think it's only the aSoviet people who liked him, but others too, those who were familliar with his works. But the point is, that when someone (I don't remember who) said that Rustaveli (the author of "The knight in the panter's skin") was the greatest poet in the world and even Pushkin couldn't be compared with him, russians got quite angry. Back then, everything Russian was considered to be the best.
    I meant more along the lines of 'but he was a Romantic'. Then again, fascists have always liked a lot of the Romantic movement...

  3. #18
    Skipping-rope Happy one's Avatar
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    It seems to me that Pushkin managed to express "Russian soul". (I'm partly Russian and guess I feel it). He wrote in different genres (poems, tales, plays). Though there were other great Russian writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    But the point is, that when someone (I don't remember who) said that Rustaveli (the author of "The knight in the panter's skin") was the greatest poet in the world and even Pushkin couldn't be compared with him, russians got quite angry. Back then, everything Russian was considered to be the best.
    Generally Slavs are emotional.
    Last edited by Happy one; 06-11-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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  4. #19
    Mad Hatta LLlaxmep's Avatar
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    woah, guys, slow down there. "russian soul", "fascists", "emotional slavs" - let's not go there, ok? please, don't take offence, i'm sure you've no ill intentions at all, but, frankly, this is getting old. russians are just about as human as everybody else, we've just been stuck between the major world cultures through our whole history and have been (and, to an extent, still are) acting as a "counterweight" to the western civilization. that, obviously, gets reflected in our culture - which is bloody awesome if you ask me - and general way of life, but, really, there's nothing that special and, tbqh, not much to brag about.
    as to pushkin: imho, he was a lousy fop, drunkard and rowdy, no matter how talented. i'm not much into poetry, but if i do read something it's never pushkin - too much self-admiration for my taste.
    Last edited by LLlaxmep; 06-15-2009 at 09:59 AM.
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  5. #20
    Skipping-rope Happy one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLlaxmep View Post
    woah, guys, slow down there.
    OK.

    So, back to the topic, can I read Otherland on web?
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  6. #21
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLlaxmep View Post
    woah, guys, slow down there. "russian soul", "fascists", "emotional slavs" - let's not go there, ok? please, don't take offence, i'm sure you've no ill intentions at all, but, frankly, this is getting old. russians are just about as human as everybody else, we've just been stuck between the major world cultures through our whole history and have been (and, to an extent, still are) acting as a "counterweight" to the western civilization. that, obviously, gets reflected in our culture - which is bloody awesome if you ask me - and general way of life, but, really, there's nothing that special and, tbqh, not much to brag about.
    as to pushkin: imho, he was a lousy fop, drunkard and rowdy, no matter how talented. i'm not much into poetry, but if i do read something it's never pushkin - too much self-admiration for my taste.
    When I said "fascists" I meant 'Soviets', not 'Russians'.

    And I've wanted to read Pushkin ever since seeing Lipstick on Your Collar (they only mention Chekhov there, but the Private was always quoting and reading Pushkin).

  7. #22
    Mad Hatta LLlaxmep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    When I said "fascists" I meant 'Soviets', not 'Russians'.
    i know. btw, soviets, while not the nicest guys you'd meet, weren't fascists. as i'm sure you know, fascism and communism are conflicting ideoligies in principal, even though they would seem similar in the ways of running things. as the matter of a fact, after the horrors of ww2 and to these very days it's considered a very strong insult to call somebody "fascist" in russia and other CIS coutries.

    anyway, what i was trying to point is that too many people these days seem unable to tell russians from soviets, muslims from islamists, jews from zionists and so on. it's very sad, really. now, don't get me wrong, i wasn't directing my above post to anybody in particular - as i said, i'm sure nobody ment to offend or anything - i simply don't want a discussion to go in that direction. let's keep politics off these forums, there's anough of that crap to be found on internet as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    And I've wanted to read Pushkin ever since seeing Lipstick on Your Collar (they only mention Chekhov there, but the Private was always quoting and reading Pushkin).
    tbh, i think to truly appreciate any kind of poetry, one must learn the language first - it is the ultimate tool of a poet, and any translation, no matter how good, takes the "magic" away. i was astounded by shakespeare when i was finally able to read the genuine article - no translation comes close, imho. and my english is still very poor - i can't even imagine what it feels like to those who can truly appreciate that stuff in its true glory.

    anyway, as i said, personally i don't like pushkin - too much glamour - but it has to be said that he wielded the russian language like very few people in our whole history. how that could be translated though - i've no slightest idea
    Last edited by LLlaxmep; 06-16-2009 at 07:25 AM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLlaxmep View Post
    tbh, i think to truly appreciate any kind of poetry, one must learn the language first - it is the ultimate tool of a poet, and any translation, no matter how good, takes the "magic" away.
    I think the only good translation of a poem is when another poet is doing the translating, digs down to the core of the original, and writes a new poem based on that in the "target language". If there's any other way to preserve the aforementioned magic, I'd be interested in hearing it!
    A fully working kitchen holds a great many things, not least of which is a huge collection of ways of committing horrible murder, plus multiple ways of getting rid of the evidence.

  9. #24
    Script Pixie wandrew8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLlaxmep View Post
    i know. btw, soviets, while not the nicest guys you'd meet, weren't fascists. as i'm sure you know, fascism and communism are conflicting ideoligies in principal, even though they would seem similar in the ways of running things. as the matter of a fact, after the horrors of ww2 and to these very days it's considered a very strong insult to call somebody "fascist" in russia and other CIS coutries.
    Oh, I know. I was saying it in a bit of Rick from The Young Ones voice: "Fascists!" But then, let's not forget the Nazis were actually Nationalist Socialists.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Oh, I know. I was saying it in a bit of Rick from The Young Ones voice: "Fascists!" But then, let's not forget the Nazis were actually Nationalist Socialists.
    Quote Originally Posted by wandrew8 View Post
    Excuse me, but that's not true. They might have been CALLED like that, but a difference between nazionalist and nazi is HUGE. and from what they did, the fascist and nazis were NOT nazionalists.
    Their official name was the National Socialist German Workers' Party. So not nationalist, but quite close to what wandrew wrote. And, what you call yourself is what you'd like to seem, not necessarily what you are

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    That's the thing. You can't know the real original poem. It'll be different.
    I'm not sure about that. If the translator finds what was at the heart of the poem, then his translation (=new poem) can inspire the same feelings. Even if the translation is quite far from word-to-word.
    A fully working kitchen holds a great many things, not least of which is a huge collection of ways of committing horrible murder, plus multiple ways of getting rid of the evidence.

  11. #26
    Mad Hatta LLlaxmep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstralTraveller View Post
    I'm not sure about that. If the translator finds what was at the heart of the poem, then his translation (=new poem) can inspire the same feelings. Even if the translation is quite far from word-to-word.
    that's exactly the problem here: nobody can find what was at the heart of the poem, imho. this stuff is too suble and subjective and impossible to really reproduce. a paradox of true art is that everybody finds a kind of magic of their own in it. sure, if the person trying to translate something is really talented he can make the translation reflect his own vision of the particular poem - that's fine and may make for a great piece of art in itself, but it won't be the genuine article. translator can imbue his work with magic of his own, but i don't think there's a way to fully preserve what was there in the first place.

    btw, there's one way to - partially at least - overcome language boundaries i can think of: theatre. the text, of course, needs to be translated for a stage performance, but if you don't use promt for it and if the director and actors know what they are doing i doesn't matter as much what language romeo speaks to jouliette - english, russian or hindu. love, passion, sorrow - those things are universal and live actors aren't limited by language alone to convey the message. but then again theatre is still only an interpretation done by other people for you.

    oh, there's another kind of voodoo i know of - it's probably a horse of different color alltogether, but still it would be good if only as example of how language doesn't really matter sometimes. this form on art doesn't rely on language as much as poetry, but it's even more strict in it's usage - so strict that most texts aren't translated at all: opera. i'm sure quna can comment on this one .
    Last edited by LLlaxmep; 06-16-2009 at 07:53 PM.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    But it can't awake the same feelings into those who listen to it. Poetry is like music made by words. Change notes, change harmony, and even though you wanted to express the same feelings, it will still sound different.
    Quote Originally Posted by LLlaxmep View Post
    that's exactly the problem here: nobody can find what was at the heart of the poem, imho. this stuff is too suble and subjective and impossible to really reproduce.
    I don't understand why you're so sure about these statements. Let's give the real poets some credit - and most languages are reach enough to find the right expressions. They may not be word for word (or even sentence for sentence) - but that's not the important bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Ahaaaaa! My veeery favorite! OF COURSE i will comment
    About theatre and opera - I generally agree, provided we generalize opera to music
    A fully working kitchen holds a great many things, not least of which is a huge collection of ways of committing horrible murder, plus multiple ways of getting rid of the evidence.

  13. #28
    Mad Hatta LLlaxmep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Have you read one piece of poetry in two different languages? They're always different.
    yeah, i was about to ask the same. how many foreign languages do you know, AT? i can't honestly say i truly know one, but still - whenever i read something in english i previously red translated in russian, the difference is a landslide. i know i tend to be overly critical at times, but still.
    "Ragnar?! You's got some s'plaining to doo!" (c) wandrew8

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Have you read one piece of poetry in two different languages? They're always different.
    Quote Originally Posted by LLlaxmep View Post
    yeah, i was about to ask the same. how many foreign languages do you know, AT? i can't honestly say i truly know one, but still - whenever i read something in english i previously red translated in russian, the difference is a landslide. i know i tend to be overly critical at times, but still.
    Depends on how you define "know" - I can get by in several languages if it's really necessary

    Seriously, though, besides my beloved native Hungarian language, I'm only good enough in English to read poetry. I read William Blake in both languages, and the two versions seemed to inspire similar feelings and impressions.
    A fully working kitchen holds a great many things, not least of which is a huge collection of ways of committing horrible murder, plus multiple ways of getting rid of the evidence.

  15. #30
    Mad Hatta LLlaxmep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quna View Post
    Leave the soviets alone, please. You know, the soviets commonly are not that bad as others think.
    ...
    Excuse me, but that's not true. They might have been CALLED like that, but a difference between nazionalist and nazi is HUGE. and from what they did, the fascist and nazis were NOT nazionalists.
    oh, dear... /facepalm. this is exactly what i was trying to avoid. please, let's stop this right now, guys, i'm sure we can figure something much more interesting to discuss between us.

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralTraveller View Post
    Depends on how you define "know" - I can get by in several languages if it's really necessary

    Seriously, though, besides my beloved native Hungarian language, I'm only good enough in English to read poetry. I read William Blake in both languages, and the two versions seemed to inspire similar feelings and impressions.
    well, as i said earlier, this stuff is absolutely subjective. to each his own.
    "Ragnar?! You's got some s'plaining to doo!" (c) wandrew8

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