Mythology of TLJ

[wandrew]

Okay, in direct response to AlraM I am going to give the Mythology thread another go.

Anyone who wants to talk about the Myths of TLJ, here's the place to do so.

To begin with, I'd like to pick up where AlraM and Kadrim left off as regards the beginning of the Balance: as far as I can remember, the entire game was about the fact that there was a time before and, at the end, a time after the Balance. The "Divide" is used not to describe cosmoplogy, but instead the historical event when Cortez the Red and the 12 Sentinel divided the universe into 2. But stop me if I'm wrong...

[AlraM]

Isn't the "Divide" the separation betwen the 2 worlds... Cause they say that the Divide was created and that the Divide will be torn down... So I don't really think that the Divide is a historical moment, but other than that I agree with what you said so far.:)

[wandrew]

Someone brought it up before, and maybe this post would do better in the Book of Secrets forum, but MacAllen the Green: why did he go bad.

I mean, Cortez the Red and the Mother, the White were both the respective guardians of Stark and Arcadia. You could explain the Ancient One, the Sea God, the Blue as just sleeping through his homesickness until the 'Ascension' (to WHERE? by the way...), but MacAllen actually lost the plot, so to speak?

Anyone? AlraM, I'm looking particularly at you...

[AlraM]

My theory is that McAllen went bad cause he was put in the world of Science. He looked how humans destroided it with wars and polution and all that evil-human stuff.
When he talks to Cortez it's pretty clear that he does not hate the entire world, he just really hates humans... and I think he really wants to unite the worlds (it being the day of Asention) to leave Earth...
Only this hate for humankind has made him blind, and he does not realise that by uniting the worlds he would do far more damage then the humans ever did...

Oh and why did the other kins not fall to the same idea... well my reason seems kinda stupid, but in a way it does make sense:
They had other stuff to do... Blue was sleeping, White was eternally taking care of her child and Red was... well watching all movies and telling people about the Balance and the other world. While they were doing that Jacob McAllen was ploting to take over the world... No big deal really...

[wandrew]

Well, Cortez assumed the guardianship of Stark, but he wasn't corrupted, depsite being engaged constantly from the moment of the Divide.

The Mother did similarly in Arcadia. She wasn't constantly distracted by the birth of her child(ren), there is the account in 'The White Spear of Gorimon' that has her active in the world. When she passes away, it is because she was engaged in combat with the Chaos Vortex, so we can assume she was as active in protection of the Balance in Arcadia as Cortez was in Stark.

Neither the Ancient One nor MacAllen really rose to the task of guardianship. The Blue wallowed in his own apathetic torpor, while Green was corrupted because...why? If he was corrupted because of human weakness and savagery, why wasn't Cortez? Maybe it's just because, even though they're immortal, they aren't divine.

[AlraM]

If he was corrupted because of human weakness and savagery, why wasn't Cortez?

Cause too much depended on him. If he must've saw how much McAllen hated the worlds and he knew he would have to be there to provide some sort of balance. That he had to remain a good guy, for the sake of the Balance.

And I hardly meant that the Kin were distracted at all times. They (as in Cortez and the Mother) had a purpose.
The Mother... she comes into the story when protecting her child (cause that's what the Silver Spear of Gorimon boils down to), when defending it against Black Chaos.

Maybe it's just because, even though they're immortal, they aren't divine.

That's something I fully agree with!

[wandrew]

Cortez the Red; the Mother, the White; MacAllen the Green (is his colour actually ever said in the game, BTW?); and the Ancient God, the Blue.

Sounds a lot like the Wizards in LOTR: Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White, Radagast the Red, and that other guy. I think he was green.

Possible influence for Ragnar? And why THOSE colours? The Mother is white, because... she's goodness and purity? MacAllen is green with... envy? The Ancient God is blue because... he's depressed and likes the sea? And Cortez is Red because... he's still driven by passions and engaged in the world?

[Michael Elboim]

Cortez is red because he eats chili!!
.......
Ehhh......
Hmmm.....
Maybe because he's from Argentina...?
Or Spain... I can't rememeber...!
But he sure looks like an Indian! so he must be red then...

[wandrew]

As all these topics have fizzled out or moved to other threads, let's start a new one:

Hmm, the Ascension. Where exactly are they going? What will the world be like without the Kin to watch over us?? What was it like before they got here??? Can we find something else to talk about concerning mythology and start a separate thread on the Kin????

[AlraM]

From what we know, it's somewhere amongst the stars. But that's all we know... one of the many mysteries I guess!

From what I understand if humans hadn't started to exploit the "divine power of two" the united world would have been just fine without the Draic Kin... So the real question is what will stop them from making abuses of magic and science once the worlds are reunited...?


I have a little question, not really related to mythology, but it bothers me: Are 12000 years really enough for two species to evoulve. I mean of course Alatiens and Mearum. They came with the Draic Kin, right?... so once they reached earth they started changing. And is 12000 years really enough?

[wandrew]

Well, when you're dealing with aliens from outer space in a world ruled by magic, who can really say? But yes, I was left a little uncomfortable by that too...

I wonder if we should start a new thread on Science /pseudo Science in TLJ? The Organic Plastic thread would seem to indicate an interest in these things...

[wandrew]

Back on the Kin though, I just noticed MacAllen saying: "There is still time. You are blood of my blood, kin to my kin, you are immortal Dragon, and our destinies weigh the Scales of the Universe."

Their "destinies weigh the Scales of the Universe"? Yikes!

[AlraM]

"Doesn't it ever bother you that you sound like a badly written play?" - Cortez
Mc Allen is so overdramatic!

Sure he could destroy the world, or change it soooo much... but it kinda pisses me off how he's so aware of this power he has...

And about the Alatiens and Mearum, if that isn't enough time for them to change, and everything else about them is still true... then is it possible for the Kin to have arrived before the need for the Divide? Like these four were the watchers of our planet??

It always seemed kinda wierd to me that at the exact moment when there was a need for a separation, these kin came. At that exact moment... like how did they know we were in trouble anyhow?

[AlraM]

from the conversation April has with the Teller:

"You're not from Earth? From Arcadia?"
"Not according to our Tales. We came on a Great Wind, before the Divide, when the Earth was one and humans had yet to learn of magic, and science."

Then it all makes sense. good.

[wandrew]

Well, I was gonna say, I don't think there was a particular point when the Divide was needed, so much as for all those cycles before it the world kept getting destroyed by Chaos and the Divide allowed them a way out... Wow, I never realised how bloody Buddhist the Kin are.

But if the Teller talks of their arrival before humans knew of magic and science, then it poses a problem. Didn't all those destructions of the world happen because humans used magic and science to make themselves too powerful?

She probably means that they came in a time before magic and science were two separate, nameable concepts. Nice use of language, in that case.

[wandrew]

Coming back to the idea of the Divide and the Kin as a reworking of the Buddha's thang, let's review the similarities.

Basically in Indian philosophy, existence is a cycle of birth and rebirth, and as long as you're generating karma (bloody hard not to do) you stay on the wheel.

So the Buddha comes along and tells people how to break the cycle and bugger-off into Nirvana.

Before the Descent (of the Kin), our world was caught in a cycle of creation and destruction. Then the Kin come and show us a way out of the cycle.

Anyone else see any similarities?

[MadBit]

You got a point saying that the divide was made to end the creation/destruction cycle, but in it's place they put a cycle of creating and detroying a Divide, so the humanity won't be destroyed.

[wandrew]

How is the Divide a cycle?

[MadBit]

I meant a cycle of creating and destroying Divides.
First, magic and science where together, then the Divide made them appart, now they´re talking about joining the 2 worlds again, but eventualy, the humanity will screw up the thing (again) and a Divide be necesary again in the future.

[wandrew]

I think Ragnar's notion of kalpas is more Western and Perennialist than that. I get the feeling that there's a Darwinian notion present which considers Humanity is reaching a point when it will no longer need the Divide to stop it destroying itself. Why else would the Kin be getting ready to Ascend? Would they really want to have wasted all that time here, let alone have to admit that they failed something?

[Drooling Iguana]

The way I figure it is something like this:

Since time out of mind, the Draic Kin had ruled over the Universe. They maintained their dominion due to the fact that they knew that the only way another civilization could pose a threat to them was if they managed to master both magic and science. Ordinarily, when it became apparent that a civilization had the potential to reach that point, the Kin would just destroy them, but somehow Earth had escaped their notice until it was already too late to do that, since we'd already become too powerful. To deal with this new threat, they came up with a new strategy; to split our world into two realities, one of science and one of magic, and to convince the inhabitants of Earth that it was for our own good. This strategy worked well for about twelve thousand years, until one of the Kin that they'd sent down to keep an eye on us grew tired of this charade and took it upon himself to lead humanity to our rightful place among the cosmos!

Vanguard forever!!!

[Pirateguybrush]

Hey DI, haven't heard from you in a long time. Why don't you stop by the divide and say hi? The new address is www.thedivide.org

[Michael Elboim]

Why don't you stop by the divide and say hi to the new address - www.thedivide.org!!!
Sounds just like my Stan.....

[Drooling Iguana]

Originally posted by Pirateguybrush
Hey DI, haven't heard from you in a long time. Why don't you stop by the divide and say hi? The new address is www.thedivide.org I tried, but my login doesn't work and when I tried to register, it said that my username was already taken.

[Pirateguybrush]

Try "divide", (no quotes) as your password. The passwords were reset when the server was changed. If that doesn't work i'll ask shady to change it for you.

[wandrew]

So, Don Iguana: do you actually support the Vanguard ideology, or am I missing the tongue poking through your cheek?

[Pirateguybrush]

These theories seem very similar to the matrix reloaded.

[Drooling Iguana]

Originally posted by wandrew
So, Don Iguana: do you actually support the Vanguard ideology, or am I missing the tongue poking through your cheek? More like I'm just not completely sold on what the "good guys" were shoving down April's throat. There's more to the situation in the Twin Worlds than meets the eye.

[wandrew]

Ah...erm...fight the power!